A Blog Means We Can Fisk Chomsky's Lies Now
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"Resistance had virtually no outside support, and in fact developed within largely in response to violence and brutality of the invaders," says Noam Chomsky.
This is exactly the kind of crap I was talking about.
Iranian agents support and participate in the Shia "resistance". Jihadis from Syria, Saudi Arabia and Jordan fight coalition troops and kill civilians (Iraqi and foreign).
Of course, he says "virtually no outside support" and not entirely none, so he may just have an unusually liberal definition of what constitutes "virtually" nothing.
And, more importantly, how is he so sure of this assertion? I'd posit that anyone over here, who says they know exactly what's going on in Iraq, is full of shit — regardless of their position.
Apparently I never blogged this, but in his initial written reaction to 9/11 he says:
The primary victims, as usual, were working people: janitors, secretaries, firemen, etc.
Firemen, OK. But janitors? Secretaries? How were they primary victims at all? Last I checked, the upper floors of the World Trade Center housed some of the wealthiest workers in the country.
Is this Noam Chomsky the linguist? When did he become anything but a linguist?
Posted by: ChuckJerry on April 13, 2004 4:24 PM | permalinkYour critique comes off as a troll. You take his *very* brief essay, pick out one part which was largely an aside, then say he's wrong. No, that he's exagerating, or misusing words. No, that no one can make any claims because the situation is too confusing. Make up your mind.
I've found the recent posts from Chomsky interesting, because they are brief and directed to a sympathetic audience. They aren't a thoroughly documented set of arguing points, because he's an intelligent man and knows that point-for-point arguments are both boring, not useful to a sympathetic audience (the arguments tend to wander and lose focus), and never convince anyone of anything. A short format is much more useful.
Of course, this means he has to say things without fully qualifying every statement and without presenting his research on the topic. I don't think it's because he lacks research -- if you know anything about Chomsky, you ought to know he is incredibly knowlegable in history and current affairs. But he leaves himself open to weak attacks like this, because you can take one small statement and say he's wrong, or he didn't provide enough proof, or you can misinterpret it in a way that makes your point easier to prove.
If you want to make an honest argument, attack the real conclusion of that post. He claims we are doing poorly in the occupation -- purely from a practical perspective -- relative to other historical occupations. Honestly, I don't know -- what seems like a lot of deaths and casualties in Iraq is only because we're much more sensitized than other occupiers have been; the actual numbers aren't very high (at least when I put my cynical bastard hat on).
keeping that hat on, I'd say our failing has been that we haven't been able to set up a Iraqi army/police to wage our occupation by proxy, which is probably the greatest failing as an occupier -- direct occupation, as the Soviet Union did in Afghanistan, as we were forced to do in Vietnam -- is a very hard task. So in my own interpretation, I'd say the US is going to be in trouble as long as the US military serves as the Iraqi state, and that is something I wouldn't really "blame" the administration for. They are in a situation where they will have a difficult time setting up a puppet government, and any real government would invalidate the whole point of the Iraqi invasion (the point that Chomsky talks about in http://blog.zmag.org/ttt/archives/000171.html)
Posted by: Ian Bicking on April 13, 2004 11:57 PM | permalinkIan, when are Chomsky's comments ever not directed at a sympathetic audience? That, in fact, is exactly what Joe is pointing out. Chomsky gets away with extensive errors and distortions because he's only speaking to those who have already drunk his Kool-Aid, and on the rare occasion that he is confronted with undeniable facts (e.g. being asked to square his support for the Khmer Rouge with the Cambodian genocide), he uses his linguistic training to assert that what he said in fact wasn't really what he was saying. All that aside, my jaw almost hit the floor when I read your post- it's cordial and well-argued as opposed to the "racist, sexist, homophobe, Islamophobe capitalist oppressor" model that most Chomsky defenders adopt. You're too good for him.
Posted by: Rutter on April 14, 2004 8:35 AM | permalink'I'd posit that anyone over here, who says they know exactly what's going on in Iraq, is full of shit — regardless of their position.'
This is a weak argument. There are media in Iraq which report 'facts'. Chomsky follows a wide variety of indpendent and corporate press - these people are there, they report, and by reading or following a wide variety of sources we can find out what's happening. This applies to numerous cases for example where analysts look at historical events.
Most people are eager to point out pedantic errors in Chomsky's writing. Most of the time these claims never attest his core arguments - they are just there to distract. If you have read Chomsky and the best thing you can quote to expose his 'lies' are those two cases, then I am sorry, but that's pretty weak. I've seen the likes of you all around the net, picking at his writing style, calling him a Pol Pot apologist or picking at any other small errors in his referencing . I think that's pretty sad. There's an inexplicable amount of hate going on against Chomsky concerning his astute moral philosophy which is above all else, very unselfish - why?
Posted by: John on April 19, 2004 9:12 AM | permalinkActually, these were just *examples* of the double-talk Chomsky does. I didn't realize that I was obligated to write an all-encompassing treatise every time I had a criticism. A simple search of this website will show that I've linked to several thorough arguments against his techniques.
As far as the media reports go, that just supports my point -- a large and diverse group of media report that there are foreign fighters in Iraq; yet Chomsky, as always, picks and chooses his sources and says, "resistance had virtually no outside support," an outlandish claim.
I don't think the hate is inexplicable -- Chomsky is phenomenally one-sided and biased; his astute moral philosophy is about as unselfish as the Khmer Rouge themselves. Chomsky has never sufficiently acknowledged the sins of anyone but the West.
Posted by: Joe Grossberg on April 19, 2004 11:17 AM | permalink'Actually, these were just *examples* of the double-talk Chomsky does. I didn't realize that I was obligated to write an all-encompassing treatise every time I had a criticism. A simple search of this website will show that I've linked to several thorough arguments against his techniques.'
Of course you're not obligated, but the examples you chose are suspiciously pedantic.
'I don't think the hate is inexplicable -- Chomsky is phenomenally one-sided and biased'
This depends on what you mean by 'one-sided and biased' and how you support this claim. I don't agree with everything he advocates, yet I just view him as a voice among many - doesn't mean you should hate him for having a different point of view. American society has suddenly developed a hate for criticism and an eagerness to point fingers. The French are a classic example.
The Bush administration's intransigence to admit to doing any mistakes is a part of this phenomenon. So maybe you are right, the hate is explicable, but Chomsky isn't necessarily the one to blame for this.
'his astute moral philosophy is about as unselfish as the Khmer Rouge themselves.'
So what you are effectively saying is that Chomsky is a supporter of mass genocide. I'd be happy if you'd point me to some of his texts where he advocated such a cause.
'Chomsky has never sufficiently acknowledged the sins of anyone but the West.'
But you fail to understand his political moral philosophy which is based on self-critique. He criticises things that he as a citizen can influence, and feels responsible for. He acknowledges the crimes you speak of, but places them on a lower pedestal because as a democratic citizen he feels less responsibility for those acts. It is very simple. I guess it comes down to what you mean by 'sufficiently', though I think in general people are scared to look in the mirror first.
Everyone 'picks and chooses his[/her] sources', just like you picked the examples above to support your claims, yet reading Chomsky his sources are based on a tremendous variety of official facts and reports, which can't really be falsified.
Posted by: john on April 19, 2004 4:20 PM | permalinkYou want it, you got it -- quintessential Chomsky:
"[T]he deaths in Cambodia were not the result of systematic slaughter and starvation organized by the state but rather attributable in large measure to peasant revenge, undisciplined military units out of government control, starvation and disease that are direct consequences of the US war, or other such factors."
-- "After the Cataclysm," Noam Chomsky, 1980
He doesn't support genocide, per se; he just denies that it happened and blames the US for what did occur.
Posted by: Joe Grossberg on April 19, 2004 5:00 PM | permalink'he just denies that it happened'
The quote you chose doesn't seem to show this.
"[T]he deaths in Cambodia were not the result of systematic slaughter and starvation organized by the state but RATHER ATTRIBUTABLE in large measure to peasant revenge..."
He's saying that genocide did in fact occur, but it wasn't necessarily systematic. A similar situation is going on today in Sudan. It's perfectly possible that a country which is dreaded with starvation, poor organisation, etc. is sensitive to coercion. Especially if a murderous regime tips the balance and causes mass panic to ensue, it's difficult to tell who's responsible. I agree with you that the Khmer Rouge was responsible but it can also be attributed to several other factors - i.e. the disastrous state of post-war Cambodia.
Chomsky's right more or less to claim that death's can be attributed to Cambodia's shambolic state after the war. He might be exaggerating the case, but nevertheless he's more compelled to criticise the causations of American actions anyway because of reasons I point out above.
Posted by: john on April 19, 2004 5:29 PM | permalinkI'm not saying he denies deaths occurred; I'm saying he denies genocide did.
Change the key nouns and it's the same devious tactic that a lot of modern Holocaust deniers use, almost verbatim:
"[T]he deaths in [Europe] were not the result of systematic slaughter and starvation organized by the state but rather attributable in large measure to peasant revenge, undisciplined military units out of government control, starvation and disease that are direct consequences of the [Russian] war, or other such factors."
His friend, Robert Faurisson would be proud.
I agree that some of the values Chomsky espouses -- dissent, concern for the disenfranchised, self-criticism, vigilance against hypocrisy -- are meritous. However, I think that adherence to his "astute moral philosophy", as you call it, inevitably results in viewing the world through "the US is always wrong" glasses.
Posted by: Joe Grossberg on April 19, 2004 6:02 PM | permalinkThis is in reply to Ian's post:
'If you want to make an honest argument, attack the real conclusion of that post. He claims we are doing poorly in the occupation -- purely from a practical perspective -- relative to other historical occupations. Honestly, I don't know -- what seems like a lot of deaths and casualties in Iraq is only because we're much more sensitized than other occupiers have been; the actual numbers aren't very high (at least when I put my cynical bastard hat on).'
I think we can find a certain point of comparison. Mainly that of the differences between troops under British and US command. If you look at Basra - during war time and shortly following the war - it was the center of resistance and a really difficult place, but now(although I don't know about the future) the city is pacified. The British control this area and I don't see them using brute force in times of diffulties. For example the economist reported that the US army has done a worse job at peacekeeping than the British. I think Chomsky's post is politically addressed to how the US initially handled the falluja affair and other similar cases - they've exercised downright aweful diplomacy and politics. The results are culminated in the movements we see being formed right now. I'm glad the US has decided to remove the blockade in Falluja, maybe Blair and Annan(they did meet prior to Bush and Blair's joint press conference) have managed to communicate a message to Bush and co.
"[T]he deaths in [Europe] were not the result of systematic slaughter and starvation organized by the state but rather attributable in large measure to peasant revenge, undisciplined military units out of government control, starvation and disease that are direct consequences of the [Russian] war, or other such factors."
Sorry doesn't work for me. I don't see how the cases are similar, as the Nazi genocide started in '33 way before German's were in the state you describe. The Nazi example is also a very clear case of proven genocide, very different from Cambodia. As I said, the current pre-genocidal situation in Sudan is more similar. Chomsky acknowledges that the Khmer Rouge was a murderous regime, but he contests whether the deaths which ensued from the chaos qualify as genocide. In the end it does not make a huge difference becuase it's just a matter of diction and calculating which deaths can be attributed to the regime. It was a murderous and horrible regime. It's impossible to tell how many they systematically killed, but rest assured it was enough to have the regime dismantled and punished.
'However, I think that adherence to his "astute moral philosophy", as you call it, inevitably results in viewing the world through "the US is always wrong" glasses.'
Nope, if you truely follow Chomsky then you'd criticise your own country first. I agree that Chomsky's 'populism' has been espoused by many anti-americans, but they misinterpret his criticisms. If you actually listen to Chomsky and watch carefully, he's always very critical of countries he visits, and points out local injustices before he actually follows on to discuss other affairs. Chomsky's just angered by what he sees as morally unacceptable violations of human rights caused by the policies of his country. His message if anything, is to use freedom of speech and the right to democracy. I can suggest some readings to you which elucidate his moral philosophy more(one's not by Chomsky), but I have to say that you gravely misinterpret him, just like numerous anti-american leftists from Europe. People DO feel that the omnipresence of US as a global hegemon influences their lives(whether this is true or not - I don't want to get into that) so I guess that's how there's been a scourge of Anti-Americanism, and people feel that the US should take blame just because of the resources and power it commands, but this is a whole new debate.
And let's go further into the whole debate about Robert Faurisson since you brought it up. The facts on it are clear and they've been presented by Chomsky. He wrote the preface, without actually reading the book and the contents of the preface have nothing to do with the actual contents of the book - it's a profound statement of the freedom of speech. French intellectuals were so keen to attack Chomsky, because they figured 'now we've got you!' But again, it was a case where people distort the actual facts for their own political purposes. Chomsky is an astute defender of the freedom of speech, and if you apply this in practice, no matter how ludicrous a statement is, people should be allowed to make it and defend it. Faurisson's argument is terrible and I find it disgusting, nevertheless, if we believe in the freedom of speech, he should be allowed to make it.
Posted by: john on April 19, 2004 6:35 PM | permalinkIf you have recommendations, feel free to list them.
Posted by: Joe Grossberg on April 19, 2004 6:37 PM | permalinkNo problem.
The Social and Political Thought of Noam Chomsky (Routledge Studies in Social and Political Thought)
~Alsion Edgley
Routledge, - April 2002
-This is probably more objective and academic than a lot of stuff that's written about him. It also incorporates his view of human nature into his moral political philosophy. This text really helped me to understand how much depth there is to Chomsky, when the pieces fall into place. Its amazing how leftist tend to trivialise his positions - I find it off-putting.
Foucault and His Interlocutors
~Arnold Davidson
University of Chicago Press
- March 30, 1997
-there's a very interesting 'debate' in here between Foucault and Chomsky that I found interesting, you might be able to find it online
(i put debate in quotation marks of course becuase it comes across more as a love affair, but it still clears up a few things)
Chomsky's System of Ideas
~Fred D'Agostino
Clarendon Press
- March 24, 1988
helpful in conjunction with other readings
Chomsky on Democracy and Education
~Noam Chomsky, Carlos Otero (Editor)
Routledge, Inc
Hardcover - December 19, 2002
-some helpful readings in here
There are lots of things written on Chomsky which are heavily biased. What initially drew me into his ideas were his arguments(I began thinking that they were increasingly biased, but I wondered whether a man with the likes of his conscience would make that mistake), but I only truely started understanding his position after reading Edgley's work. If you have time check em out at your local library - and I hope you find them as helpful as I did.
Posted by: john on April 19, 2004 7:04 PM | permalinksome might also find the Chomsky reader and chomsky autobiography helpful as well, though you will probably think they are biased. the Chomsky reader expands the depth of his politics and philosophy.
Posted by: john on April 19, 2004 7:14 PM | permalinkNo more comments! Either someone has violated Godwin's Law, I'm tired of the discussion or, most likely, the ten-week window has closed. You can, however, contact me through email.